Andrea Nordling 0:00
Welcome back to the profitable nutritionist podcast my friend, I cannot wait to share today’s episode with you, especially if you’re like me, and do not really resonate with being a people pleaser. Such an interesting topic that we’re diving into today with the help of my dear friend Sarah Fisk, who is a professional coach for you guessed it people pleasers. I love bringing her on the podcast and the conversation that we just had. Because like I said, I don’t really resonate with being a people pleaser. However, through this conversation, I realized there are plenty of situations when I do people, please. And I’m kind of questioning my motivations behind that. So my friend, this episode is going to knock your socks off. If first of all, you know that you people, please. And that’s something that you do resonate with. Or if like me, you don’t, and you might be a little bit surprised how this shows up in your business. So Sarah, and I just dove deep. I can’t even wait for you to hear that episode. But I’m going to give you the highlight reel we just dove deep into, first of all how we become people pleasers since fascinating. Second of all, how people pleasing shows up in our businesses, that’s very specifically what we want to focus on in this episode. And what I know is going to be the most useful for you, although people pleasing will leak out into every relationship in our life. So it’s not solely going to apply to your business, although that’s definitely the topic that we talked about in the episode. And then Sarah brings us through a five step process that she teaches her clients for navigating sticky situations. And those could be both personally or professionally. Remember, we’re talking about specifically how people pleasing situations and tendencies will show up in your business. But that might be with your spouse, or it might be with a business partner, or it might be with friendships, in your life with your kids, with your clients, with your team members. If you have people working for you or working with you, there’s so many different ways that this can pop up. And you could have a need for one or two or several hard conversations. So this episode is going to give you a framework for how to tackle those conversations. It’s a five step process absolutely blew my mind, including a somatic practice, meaning a mind body practice for releasing anxiety and shame in your body. So you can deal with the emotions that come up when and if you do decide not to people please and have some of these hard conversations. Again, this could be with clients, with people in your personal life with team members, so many different variations. And Sara coaches a lot of people on people pleasing. So she had a lot of examples that she brings to the conversation, you’re going to love it. But that is just the beginning. Because although we did cover a lot of ground in the episode, I’m not gonna lie, Sara ended the episode by giving two different homework options. I love, I love the homework options that made me so happy. It’s like, here’s the takeaways. And here, here’s what you’re gonna do next, the marching orders, I love that she gave two different options specifically for students in the profitable nutritionist program to complete prior to taking it to the next level with a live workshop and coaching session that she’s going to be hosting in the program in June. Do not miss this workshop opportunity. People pay so much money to get coached by Sarah on this exact topic. And she is bringing it live into the profitable nutritionist program in June. So she kind of gave marching orders at the end of the episode. And if you are in the TPN program, those are for you. Okay, you have one of two options of how to prepare for the workshop and actually go use some of these tools, then bring it back to the session and get coached live where she’s going to give some more in depth strategies. So you’re going to get be getting all the information about this upcoming workshop in June was Sara emailed to you if you’re in the program, but if you are not in the program, why is that? How could that possibly be? What is going on? Make sure you join TPN when enrollment opens up may 16, to the 22nd. So you will also be included on the live workshop in June. Again, this episode that you’re about to listen to is part one, and it’s going to give you a ton of actionable strategies to use in sticky situations or conversations when you’re tempted to people please at your own expense. And then at the live workshop in June inside the profitable nutritionist program, that’s going to be the part two with more nuanced strategies, addressing more of the Mind Body component and you can also get coached live by Sarah with your exact situation. Depending on which homework option you choose from the end of the episode, so don’t miss it. Make sure you’re on the waitlist for the profitable nutritionist program enrollment. Again, the dates of that upcoming enrollment are may 16 to the 22nd you add yourself to the waitlist by going to the profitable nutritionist.com/join. Again, that’s the profitable nutritionist.com/join And if you’re listening to this episode in the future, go to that same page and you will always find the dates of the next upcoming enrollment so you can add yourself to the waitlist. All right, my friend Without further ado, meet Sarah. So fun. welcome Sarah Fiske to the profitable nutritionist Podcast. I’m so excited that you’re here.
Sara Fisk 5:09
I have been looking forward to this all week, I’ve been making notes in my head. I’ve been making notes on my phone, because this is going to be a great conversation. Yes,
Andrea Nordling 5:18
it is. And I’m not just saying that to people, please you. But let’s talk about people pleasing. So I’ve already insured you. Everyone knows how amazing you are. But why don’t you tell? In your own words, how you got into this work? And what exactly it is that you do.
Sara Fisk 5:35
I got into this work, it’s 100% autobiographical, I became a coach. And in the beginning, I was a weight loss coach. And when I figured out that it was just a sneaky way for me to force myself to lose weight, I joined a master coach training program. And in the course of like, there was a lot going on at the same time, I was grappling with the my husband’s decision to leave the religious community that we had both been raised in and thought we would die and spend all our lives in. And I was just experiencing the dissonance of like, how easily he was able to like, let things go and make his own decisions and just decide to leave and leave. And I was like almost in my 40s. And I felt like my parents were still making me go to church. Right? I just, I was so weighed down by what will they think they will be so hurt so disappointed. But I’m also in this master coach training program, and I’m just consumed by Do you think I’m a master coach? What do you think it’d be? Am I doing this right for you? Is this okay? For you? I just it all just Do you ever have those moments where it’s everything just comes to a head at once? And you’re like, oh my gosh, what is this? Why do I feel like I have no freedom? In my own life? And I am 40 effing years old can I swear? You sure can write like this doesn’t make sense. And I thought what is this? And then I was like this, this is people pleasing. And it felt weird to me. Because I could say no to things in people. I felt like I, you know, was was fairly outspoken about some of the things I believed. And so it just at first, it didn’t really mesh with who I thought I was as a person. But one of the things we had to do for this master coach training program was right. It was a project. And so I decided to write a curriculum for how to stop people pleasing. And I just pulled from all of my own experience and existence. And the more I did it, the more I thought, oh my gosh, that’s what this is. It’s people pleasing. This is so
Andrea Nordling 7:47
fascinating. I mean, I know your story. I’ve heard you tell it, I’ve heard you tell it on other podcasts. And so I feel like I I kind of have the inside scoop on this a little bit to a certain extent. But I love what you’re saying that it’s sneaky and it like people that don’t identify as a people pleaser probably do have those tendencies, even if we don’t think so because I wouldn’t consider myself to be a people pleaser. Although I did look at the outline of what we’re going to be talking about today. And I was like, Oh, I’m in for a treat. This is going to be for me as much as for anybody else. Yeah,
Sara Fisk 8:20
and I’ll just say right off the bat, the way I define people pleasing is self abandonment. It’s any time and and to be clear, it is self Abandonment when you don’t want to we abandon ourselves for reasons that we want to all the time, right? You have children, I have children, we abandon ourselves to take care of our children. But it’s because most of the time we like our reasons, or where we are aware of our reasons. But what I’m talking about is the type of self abandonment, that doesn’t feel like you have a choice. doesn’t feel like it’s an option to not do it or to choose yourself. And that shows up for a lot of all women in a lot of different places, just depending on you know what their experience is. But I found it to be pretty universal, that people who are socialized as women in western patriarchal capitalist countries, experience people pleasing, at least somewhere so interesting.
Andrea Nordling 9:21
Okay, well, the topic for us is going to be how it applies to our business and we’re both business owners so we know this acutely, and we can see it in a lot of different areas. But obviously, like you said, this is going to apply in all relationships probably for us. I’m so excited to talk about it. Okay, what do you need to like any other foundational stuff we need to know anything else you need to explain? Yeah.
Sara Fisk 9:45
Let me just do a quick overview. Because a lot of there are some women who identify as people pleasers and they feel sometimes shame and embarrassment around it. Like when I was saying you know, I’m 40 fucking years old, why can’t I stop going to church if I don’t want to. But the thing that helps me to remember is that every single human being who is on earth today came into this world as an infant, completely dependent on the big people to take care of them. And part of what we are given as mammals, as you know, humans, is the ability to sense other people interoception, right, that we can feel in our bodies, evidence of things happening outside of us, and we can, we have mirror neurons that help us plug into the experience of other people around us. And if you think about a baby, all they can do is cry. And then that cry gets answered, hopefully, and the diaper is changed, or they’re fed or they’re helped to go to sleep. So the very first connection that human babies make is, Oh, I do something, and I get a response. I cry, and somebody comes and takes care of me. Ideally, we know that there are situations where that doesn’t happen, and the babies literally just stop crying. They don’t cry anymore, because it’s an expenditure of energy that they know is not worth it. But in an ideal situation, baby cries gets helped. And then they begin to pick up clues. Have you ever seen a baby smile? What do all the adults in the room do?
Andrea Nordling 11:21
Yeah, it’s insane.
Sara Fisk 11:23
Oh my gosh. Right. And so babies like, oh, they like that. And baby smiles more. And so there’ll be there becomes this very beautiful reciprocal cycle of like, I pick up on what you like, I do it. And then you love me, you squeeze me. You give me connection, you give me warmth. And then as baby gets older, the opposite like what do they get punished for? They begin to study, I remember of sitting in church holding my infant daughter, and she smacked me with her hand right at that age where they’re like, I’ve got these limbs, and I can do stuff with them. And She smacked me and I grabbed her hand, and I pushed her physically away from my body. And I said, No, and she dissolves into tears, right? Because she is experiencing the punishment of disconnection because she did something that I didn’t like. And so baby grows up. And now baby is a toddler and in middle school, or at night, middle school, you know, preschool, and then there’s just more and more big people that start teaching this child, what you get rewarded for and what you get punished for. And so every single human people pleases for survival. It’s just that we’re never taught how to not people, please, when we don’t want to be doing that anymore. In the beginning of our lives, it’s an essential behavior. It gets a safety and connection and belonging and warmth and love and friendship and community and family and humans who are socialized as men, they have a few off ramps to people pleasing, right? Boys will be boys, their their misbehavior is generally more tolerated speaking in generalities, of course, but if you are a woman, what is reinforced is self abandonment, not choosing yourself over the group, right, not choosing your own preferences, your own desires. And so what starts out is an essential behavior for survival becomes the trap that eventually keeps us from growing. Unless we are taught how to not people,
Andrea Nordling 13:31
please, this is just the most fascinating thought exercise. So I love that you kind of stumbled into this because you were living it. When I just have to circle back like when you were in master coach training, and you were deciding what project to do. And you decided to do the curriculum on people pleasing? Did you have an awareness then that this was something that you wanted to keep exploring? Or did it just seemed like the most acute thing at the moment? It’s
Sara Fisk 13:57
just seemed like the most acute thing at the moment. In fact, it was my second project, my first project, I designed it 100% Based on what I thought they wanted to see from me, shocking, shocking. It failed spectacularly in the most like humiliating, embarrassing way possible. And it really just showed me like this thing. It’s a thing, this thing that you have that has to know if everybody is approving of you, if they think that you’re good enough, if they think that you’ve got what it takes. This is the thing and so, like, I think as people pleasing, I wrote the curriculum, just for me, like really just for me, and I thought six weeks we’ll be we’ll get this thing taken care of in six weeks. It’s taken a little longer. It’s ongoing. But what I discovered in the course of doing that work first for myself, then I tested it with a couple groups. I just I love it. I love it so much.
Andrea Nordling 14:53
Yeah, yeah. Well, obviously this is something that you think about and talk about all the time. So it’s so valuable. How do we think that shows up in business. Let’s talk about it. I know you work with one on one clients, I’m sure we’ll talk about this at some point, like you said, you also work with groups on this topic. So I know you work with entrepreneurs, how do you see this showing up in their businesses?
Sara Fisk 15:12
There’s several different ways and and there’s gonna be ways that we don’t cover here as well. But if you get the the basic feeling is, I want to do something, I want to make a decision, I want to move forward on something, I want to enact a policy or I want to set boundaries around something, and I can’t do it.
Andrea Nordling 15:35
So I’m reason that can be with any relationship with your personal life. Yeah, your business personal, this can be boundaries with clients, like I mentioned, that could show up in business partnerships, lots of different ways. Right.
Sara Fisk 15:47
Like, for example, as business owners, we have policies, right, we have policies about what happens when people don’t meet their end of the contract that they have agreed, if you are not able to comfortably enforce the rules of your business, if you are not able to comfortably, call a client out and say, Hey, this is not the behavior that we both agreed, would be part of our relationship. If you have people working for you, and they’re not doing the job that you want them to do, and you feel bad, you don’t want them to feel bad. And so you have a hard time thinking about like having a hard conversation. Or you think that anytime you want to offer criticism or feedback to someone it is mean, then there’s a chance there’s some people pleasing there. And what that ends up happening is the load on you is more than it needs to be because either you’re not able to give feedback so that employees perform what you’ve hired them to perform. And in a lot of cases, your clients don’t actually grow the way they could, if they had in our case, like a coach say, hey, this, this behavior isn’t what we agreed on, let’s talk about it, what’s happening for you here, in a place of non judgement. Because when you think that’s mean, you’re going to be judging yourself as mean for doing it. And then you’re trying to be nice, and you’re trying to soft pedal and make it really easy for them to hear, which oftentimes just sacrifices the clarity of the message that they actually need to hear to grow.
Andrea Nordling 17:25
Oh, my gosh, I can think of so many examples of this. So good. How else I’m just I’m thinking about what that looks like. I love that you brought up as the business owner to employees or contractors, team members that you’re working with that is huge. I can find myself slipping into some people pleasing tendencies in that department. And I don’t usually find that that’s, that’s an experience that I have. But I can see it for sure.
Sara Fisk 17:51
Yeah, another place that it shows up a lot is in indecision, or overthinking.
Andrea Nordling 17:57
Okay, tell me about that. Because
Sara Fisk 17:59
if you as the business owner, are trying to find the right, quote, unquote, decision, or get to the best, quote, unquote, outcome, a lot of times, especially as entrepreneurs, we don’t know what that is. Because we’ve never built a business to this level. We’ve never progressed, you know, past where we are. And so we’re trying to see into the future, what’s going to be best what’s going to be most beneficial. And we’re paralyzed by, I don’t know, what if it What if I get it wrong? What if I, what if this person thinks I get it wrong? What if that person thinks that I didn’t do this, right? And there’s, there’s a lot of what I call like the decision jury where you like, phone, Andrea? Like Andrew, what do you think I should do? And it’s not for information. Like sometimes I just, I mean, you and I had a conversation. I’m like, I just actually don’t know the information to solve this problem. That is different than I really want Andrea to think I’m a good business owner, and I want her to affirm or validate my choice, because I can’t affirm and validate my choice. So all of the hours that your brain is ruminating on different options, worrying about what will possibly go wrong, who will be mad at you, who will think that you did the wrong thing, who will not trust your judgment anymore? There are some people pleasing in there.
Andrea Nordling 19:24
Yeah, I can see this a lot with clients that I coach that are, like feel very, very guilty about leaving their jobs to business. That’s
Sara Fisk 19:34
yeah, yeah. And if you think about here, here’s where it really kind of gets my attention. When I talk to women who are coming to me to join my group coaching program, and we just calculate the amount of time that they spend spinning, ruminating, worrying, replaying past conversations beating themselves up for not saying the right thing. worrying about future conversations where they aren’t going to feel like they’re able to be as honest as they want to be redoing work that they passed off to other people, but they don’t think it’s, you know, perfect. It’s hours and hours and hours a day. In fact, it’s three to five hours a day on average.
Andrea Nordling 20:17
That’s amazing. Now, and breathtaking,
Sara Fisk 20:21
right? Yes, yeah, because if we do a little bit of math, three hours, let’s take the low end three hours a day times, seven days a week, right? times 52 weeks a year, that’s 1092 hours, that the average low average female brain is just hemorrhaging energy. Because she doesn’t has not yet developed the skills yet to not people, please and to trust herself to know what she wants. And trust that whatever happens, I’m going to be able to take care of it. And if this person is disappointed, I will handle it. If that person is disappointed, we will be okay. And that’s actual, like brain space. It’s actual time and actual energy that is just lost because of people pleasing.
Andrea Nordling 21:12
Oh, my gosh, it’s insane. Really? Yeah. You have no shortage of clients. That is what we’ve established. Holy cow. Yeah. That’s amazing. I also think that this shows up a lot for my clients, and I’m sure for yours as well around their children, and having a lot of guilt about the time and energy that they spend thinking about and working on their business and feeling guilty that it isn’t the amount that they should be very big air quotes, thinking and doting on their family.
Sara Fisk 21:45
Yeah, because we are taught that our highest and best value as women is to have children and to stay home with them. That that is I mean, if you think about, I don’t want this to become a political conversation, but it’s interesting that all of the legislation around women’s bodies and forcing them to have children is is such a like, like a like a hot topic right now. And it actually reinforces and mirrors what we are taught by the patriarchal system that we’ve grown up with that our best value our best use is to have a nurturer children. I have five children. Okay, I love children. And I’m also very aware of the fact that from a very young age were inculcated with this is what you should be doing. And so if you’re not doing that, raising children being with them being home, you should feel guilty. Yeah,
Andrea Nordling 22:39
I mean, I think I can see that really show up for both sexes in different ways. But I think that there’s a lot of expectations on on role like family roles that I can imagine. I mean, I can certainly think of several men in my life that I think have people pleasing tendencies about what is expected of them. Oh,
Sara Fisk 22:56
absolutely. Patriarchy is unkind to men as well. Right? in different ways. And, you know, for for a lot of men, their business is the is the supreme indicator of their success, how much money they make, how big the business is, and that is part of the the weight of the heaviness of patriarchy as well.
Andrea Nordling 23:16
Such an interesting, like, contrast that exercise. Okay, so as business owners, we could be people pleasing our, our clients, our families, any relationships that were in our potential clients, the clients, we don’t even have yet where people pleasing them. Sometimes I see, I coach on a lot of this of like, the hypothetical people that aren’t even there yet, and what are they gonna break and ever we are pleasing people that aren’t even there. But this happens. Totally.
Sara Fisk 23:42
It also shows up in, like, when you’re trying to present something about your business, whether it’s an email or something, like what do they want? What do they want? What will make them happy? What will make them come? What will make them buy from me? Versus what do what really lights me up? What can I put out into the world that I think is valuable, that will attract other people who think that this is also valuable? And I know that sometimes I sit down to write emails, like what do they want to hear? What do they want to hear? What do they want to hear? And you know, there are some people pleasing to take a look at their
Andrea Nordling 24:14
Yeah. Okay, so how do we know if it’s people pleasing? If we’d like our reasons, if we don’t like our reasons, what would you say about that
Sara Fisk 24:22
I have a process that is designed to reveal just that thing. And let me just teach it to you quickly, and give you a little bit of a teaser because what we’re going to do is in June, I’m going to teach this in in detail in your group and give people some coaching on it. But just so that everyone has a place to start, when you feel like you are in a people pleasing situation. And you have the opportunity to do this. The first thing you want to do is pause. So let’s say that you have a meeting coming up with someone you have employed, and you have the option to give them some feedback. that, you know, is going to be a little prickly for them to hear. But it’s also the best thing for your company, pause, because you have to take a break to let your brain and all the emotions and the worry and the anxiety that comes up around that calm down. The second step I call pretend. And what really means is forecasting those different options, okay? I can tell Andrea that her performance is not meeting this standard in this area. And if I do that, I’m going to feel really anxious, or I cannot tell her. And I can just pretend like everything’s fine. And I’m going to be just be feeling also really anxious, because I know that I’m not going to get what I need. And so the first thing we realize is that it is uncomfortable either way. And in the pretend step, we really want to name both of those emotions. Because Step number three is to pick now that you know what the options are, what are my reasons? What are my reasons for just telling her everything’s fine? So happy to have you on board? Great, you’re doing great, and not telling her the truth? What would my reasons be? Okay, I’m scared. She might not like me, I’m scared. She’s gonna think I mean, I’m scared, she might quit, and go find another job. Okay, those are those reasons, what are my reasons for taking the other path of letting her know, it’s better for my company, it challenges me as the leader and CEO, okay, which do I like better. And then step number four is to process the anxiety that you are going to feel either way, because remember, people pleasing produces discomfort. And that’s a never ending cycle of just more and more people pleasing. But when you choose to not people, please, that’s also going to be highly uncomfortable. The first couple times, you do something different. But the difference is, as you work those non people pleaser muscles, they respond just like our bodily muscles, do they get stronger over time. And then step number five is to just practice so that those non people, please, our muscles just keep getting bigger and more easier to access. And then you just find yourself doing a lot less people pleasing. So that’s how you find those reasons. And that’s how you choose which scenario do I want? And what uncomfortable emotion? Am I going to have to let myself feel to not people, please 1,000%?
Andrea Nordling 27:24
I would imagine it’s really important at the beginning to just realize when those situations are even coming up, I bet it’s like, it’s just so habitual, I can think of several for myself that I’m like, Oh, it would be hard for me to even pause in the moment because I probably wouldn’t catch it.
Sara Fisk 27:39
Yes, it’s always really helpful. And this is why you know, group coaching is such a great vehicle for this building awareness. What I like to have all of my participants notice is that whenever they’re going to people, please, there is a feeling in their body. Usually it’s anxiety, or worry. Sometimes it’s like a pit in your stomach. And if you just want to notice, you’re listening, and you’re like, I wonder why people please just notice over the next couple of weeks, where do I not feel capable of choosing what I want? And what’s the feeling in my body when that’s happening? Because there’s always clues, right of, you know, somatic clues and feeling clues. And then the more of those you can collect, the better information you have about where your people pleasing shows up. Oh,
Andrea Nordling 28:31
that’s so interesting. Okay, I want to put a pin in that and come back to that, because you have me all sorts of intrigued there, I get wait to explore that. Let’s talk about how like this process. Let’s do another example, I think with a spouse or a partner, okay. As a business owner, I feel like it could be really a good exercise to go through a few places this could show up and then because I’m just going to be really add about this and just throw it out there. Could you people, please your kids, that’s the thing. People pleasing their kids. Okay, so we can talk about that too.
Sara Fisk 29:03
Absolutely. Yeah.
Andrea Nordling 29:04
I don’t know. I mean, do you have any scenarios you’ve coached on recently that kind of stick out? I know, I coach a lot on the dynamic between a spouse or a partner not understanding the demands of being a business owner of getting a business off the ground, the time demands, the inconsistency of it, the financial side of all of that, so yeah, I mean, do you have any, anything that like jumps out? Yeah,
Sara Fisk 29:25
absolutely. It is. It is very, very normal for people pleasers to want their point of view or their emotions to be acknowledged and affirmed so that they’re valid. And so a lot of times what we do is we start to over explain, or over share in the hopes that someone else like a husband, or a partner or a girlfriend or wife or whoever we’re talking about, will really understand and believe us So and so I can imagine a scenario where, let’s say there’s a heterosexual husband, wife, and the wife is starting a business. And the husband is like, this is just like taking a lot of your time. And I don’t get why this is so hard. I mean, my business, wasn’t that hard to set up. And are you sure you’re doing it? Right? Are you sure that there’s like, aren’t things like you used to do a lot more around the house, you used to do a lot more for the kids and I what’s happening here? And so first of all, the dynamic of every loving partnership involves explanation and connection and an trying to understand each other, right. So I’m not talking I’m not suggesting and I’m not talking about the kind of conversations we have, where we are offering information and our partners like, oh, okay, now I understand. There are other dynamics and relationships where no matter how much you explain, the other person is determined to misunderstand you. And how you respond to that is with more explaining, but it’s this, but it’s this, but you don’t see this, but this but this, rather than understanding, oh, I am not going to be able to please this person with my explanation. They, for whatever reason, whether they are unwilling or unable actually doesn’t matter. They are not able to get past this misunderstanding of me. And that hurts. Right? That makes me feel disconnected or misunderstood. That makes me feel on the outside a little bit. And so rather than try and explain, explain, explain, explain to try to get them convinced of my position, so that I don’t have to feel the pain of their misunderstanding. What if I just let them misunderstand me? What if it’s just okay, that someone else either misunderstands me or is disappointed in me, or doesn’t fully share my view? What if that’s okay, what if I did the work to really be settled in? This is what I believe about me. I believe I’m doing the best I can. I believe that I am doing this new thing that I’ve never done before. To the best of my ability. Yes, I’m messing some things up. Yes. I’m getting some other things right. I believe that about me. What if I let that be enough?
Andrea Nordling 32:29
That’s the mic drop right there. So good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Does that know what you mean? About the seeking validation on just ideas and kind of like the magic wand? Like, you just want the magic wand from you that I’m doing the right thing? Okay.
Sara Fisk 32:43
Yes, yes. Yeah. Until and to really, truly let someone else be wrong about you can be really painful, no matter how much time and energy it saves, because that’s what it really saves, right? All of this time and energy, we spend explaining and trying to get people to believe us and trying to get people to see our side of it. We don’t have to do that anymore. But then what we do have to allow ourselves to feel is the pain of being misunderstood, and the safety that we have to create for ourselves, which is I believe me, I believe that I’m doing the very best I can. And for whatever reason this other person doesn’t. And I’m just gonna let that be okay.
Andrea Nordling 33:26
But over time that alleviates This is to your point before that alleviates so much time ruminating, rehashing reliving past conversations, planning out what to say next. Yeah, that’s a considerable,
Sara Fisk 33:41
trying to find the right words, that’s a big place where people pleasers like trying to find the right words, or the right opportunity to discuss something like this. It really contradicts our biological programming to connect, right. And so we have to know that there’s something more important than just the connection I get by this person agreeing with me. And the thing that is more important is the connection and safety that I create with myself. That no matter what this other person, I mean, an example that comes to mind is when I was leaving the church, and I was talking with my parents, they really wanted to know like, are you leaving? And I knew that I could like soft, pedal it a little bit be like No, I don’t know, we’re going to see I don’t know. But I decided that because I wanted to tell the truth in that most difficult relationship. I said, Yes, I am. And my mom said, Are you sure? Like yes, I am sure. And I fought the urge at that moment to like, because of this and this and this and this and this and this and this, and I just let it Be silent. And it was the most tense moment I have, like ever felt in my body. But like, but you know, you don’t need to convince them because you know, and so I said, it would be lovely. If you trusted me, it would be lovely if you had some confidence in me. But if you don’t, it’s okay. I understand it. I understand why you don’t. But it doesn’t matter. Because I trust me, I have confidence in me. And although this doesn’t look like what we thought it would look like, I know it’s the right thing. And so as business owners who are marching off sometimes into this unknown space, to have that self trust and self confidence, to take bold action to make decisions, and to know, one of two things, number one, I know this is right. And number two, even if it doesn’t work out the way I really want it to I will take care of me. I’ll be able to handle it.
Andrea Nordling 35:53
Yeah, that’s so good. I mean, yeah, it’s it’s really just having your own back in a car conversation. Yes, yeah. Like I said,
Sara Fisk 36:02
it, it really tugs at those connection impulses that we have. But when you have connection with yourself, and when that becomes the standard of like, I treat myself this way, I have confidence in me this way. You draw that to you, in other relationships. And so it really benefits every relationship that you have, it’s just scary to go first. And to cut off all of your sources of outside validation for a little while, while you really get to know yourself, what you really want, how to trust that, and then how to have your own back around it.
Andrea Nordling 36:43
Let’s take a minute and talk about podcasts. Here’s how they work, you subscribe. And then every Tuesday rain or shine, you’re going to get a brand new episode in your feed for free from me, that’s going to help you make more money in less time and impact more people’s lives. It’s incredible that we just have the best jobs by the way, we should do. And because we don’t run any ads on this show, the one thing I would ask from you in exchange for all the value that you’re getting here is to take 60 seconds after you subscribe and leave a review. When you rate their podcasts and leave a review. It tells apple and Spotify and all the other podcast platforms that this is quality content. And then those algorithms share it with way more people who also want to impact more people’s lives. See what I’m saying? Leaving that quick review might just change everything for someone else and their business, we’ve made it really easy. If you don’t know how to leave a review in your podcast app, just go to the profitable nutritionist.com/review where you’ll get a magic link to leave that review in whatever podcast platform you use. Again, if you don’t know how to do the review, go to the profitable nutritionist.com/review. And we’ll show you exactly how thank you so much for taking the time, it really really does mean the world. Okay, so this ties in beautifully to then how your body tells you tells you the answers to those things. So, obviously, well maybe not so obvious. But this audience that’ll be listening to this podcast, looks at their health holistically and their life holistically. And I’m guessing most people listening to this are very much on board with the fact that our body will tell us a lot of things if we ask the right questions. So tell us about the somatic work and how you employ that in people pleasing.
Sara Fisk 38:19
So I have in the coaching that I do, I have a couple of different lenses, you know, one of them is obviously like patriarchy and feminism, and then somatic work, and then parts work. So there’s a type of a therapeutic tool called internal family systems. It’s something that I have found incredibly helpful to understand that there are different parts that do different jobs for us, right, they protect us, they manage us, they motivate us, and then there are other parts of ourselves that we don’t allow ourselves to feel sometimes, you know, big uncomfortable emotion. So when I am pleasing someone, and when I am in the act of it, when I am looking outside of me for their for their validation for Do I belong? Do you like me? Is this acceptable to you? In my body, there are things happening, like in my personal body, I get a squeezing right here, like in my upper chest right under my left collarbone. There’s a squeezing, that’s like do it, do it, make them happy, make them happy, do whatever you need to do. You need to make them happy. You need to make them like you. So there’s like actual sensations or there’s feelings like anxious or worried or fearful or their sentences. Like you have to make them happy. They have to like you and the way that our body responds to the threat of not being liked the threat of maybe being kicked out of the group comes with with its own unique set of sensations like A pit in your stomach. That’s where a lot of people feel it like a fluttering in your chest, or a squeezing type of like to, because the parts of us are trying to get our attention to make us do things that they think are essential for our connection. And one of those is to please, other people.
Andrea Nordling 40:21
Okay, so what do we do with that information? When we notice it,
Sara Fisk 40:24
here’s what I like to do, when we first start to notice it, I just take my hand and I put it directly over that spot. I know this is podcast, and so you can’t really see what I’m doing. But I have my right hand, and I just put it over that squeezing spot right under my left collarbone. And I just say, Hi, I feel you Yes, right. I’m really anxious right now that this person isn’t going to like this, I’m, I’m worried that this person is going to be disappointed. And I start to have a little internal dialogue, maybe even after the fact because in the moment for a people pleaser, there’s a lot going on, we’re our nervous system might be heightened because we are sensing a potential threat of disconnection. So in the moment, if I can feel it, my hand goes there, or my hand goes around my wrist, and I just take a minute to be with myself, I make contact with my body, either with my right hand over that spot under my left collarbone, or my hand, one hand gripping around my other wrist. And it’s just me saying to me, I know I can feel that. Yeah, it doesn’t feel good. This is anxiety. I’m right here with you. It’s okay, I’m listening. And then I begin to just offer to that squeezing or the anxiety, whatever I think it needs in the moment, to take it down a notch. I’m right here with you, you have my attention. Let’s just take some breaths. I know this is really uncomfortable. He was really mad, I thought for sure he was gonna yell at us. You’re right, that was really like whatever was going on, having a dialogue audibly or in audibly inside your head doesn’t matter, to notice and validate, and to recognize and just be present with that sensation or that part as a way of saying, I hurt you, and you matter. What you’re worried about is valid. And I’m going to figure out how to take care of us. So
Andrea Nordling 42:30
this seems like step one to me. Like starting there. Yeah. Okay, that’s so good. So we take the information, we notice it, acknowledge it to ourselves, and then does that stop happening? Give me a happy ending.
Sara Fisk 42:49
It does, but maybe not in exactly the way that you think it will, what happens is, it becomes tolerable, and it becomes normal. And it becomes like, just a part of the discomfort of being a human versus the discomfort of something has gone terribly wrong. And now you’ve messed it up, and they’re gonna hate you. And now you’re gonna die alone, right? That’s, it becomes tolerable in a way. Like, if you’ve ever started running, and you get really bad shin splints, in the beginning of your running career, you pay attention to them, you work with them, and you take care of them. And then you might have a shin splint incident a couple of times, but now your body has adjusted to the new way of taking care of that area around your calves and and your legs. And so it integrates it into normal activity, and it doesn’t set off, like danger signals anymore.
Andrea Nordling 43:55
Yeah, I can see that. So, okay, so we’re aware of people pleasing tendencies, we’re aware of what’s happening in our bodies, I’m going to definitely be doing this. We have the process that you went through, and we’re going to recap that in a second. But you’re going to go more in depth on that in the workshop coming up inside the profitable nutritious program, can I make a plug for those of you listening, that are not already in the program, you must be enrollment opens may 16, to the 22nd. If you’re already in the program, then you have a lot to look forward to because Sarah’s coming in, and she’s going to be coaching you on this, putting you in the hot seat and going through your exact scenario. So this is gonna be so fun. I’m just talking through like in my brain, okay, so we notice we’re doing this process. Now I want to know what happens on the other side. So in these relationships, where we have a tendency to people pleasing, there may be a long standing pattern of putting that person’s interests first or group of people’s interests first, and abandoning ourselves, like you said in the beginning, the self abandonment that we don’t love our reasons for when that has been established for a long time, and that’s a pattern that’s been ongoing, and we start to take away And we start to feel what’s happening in our body. And we start to pause and weigh the two options and decide I’m going to pick the one that is equally uncomfortable, but maybe puts my interests first for once. And we start that pattern, like, what is the fallout of that? And I know this is going to be nuanced and different for every situation. But can we talk a little bit about how to navigate the aftermath of shifting those patterns? Yes,
Sara Fisk 45:23
there are going to be some varying outcomes dependent on the other people on the other end of these relationships, right. So right now, there are people who benefit from your people pleasing. So when you begin to become aware of your people pleasing, and you decide to learn how to not people, please, you are going to discover that there are some people in your life or in relationships, that you have professional friendships, otherwise, who don’t like it, because they benefit from the way that you are willing to accommodate them, do things for them clean up after them, not call them out on, you know, dynamics that are not healthy. And across the board, it’s pretty normal in human relationships, that when someone shifts the dynamic, the other person has some questions about it or needs to be reassured or needs to be told what is happening. So if you and I are friends, and I’ve always been the one to accommodate you, I never care where we where we go, I never care where we eat, I let you you know, plan everything, and I just kind of follow you. But then I decide, oh, you know what I actually do have needs. And I do have ones, I’m just not comfortable sharing them. Because I’m people pleasing Andrea, and I start to say, You know what, I’d like to go to this restaurant. And you’re like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I am the one who is, you know, I’m the one who plans the things and calls the shots here, I have the option to bring you in on what’s happening. You know what, I’m just really trying to get in touch with me who I want, what I want, who I am, what I want to do. And I know that that might be new for you. Because in the past, I have really differed to you. And that’s been the dynamic, but I’m trying something new. And so when I bring you in on what’s happening, you get to decide, okay, I either want this new version of Sarah and I want to try to take our relationship in the direction that includes her in this way, or I don’t, and I am not in charge of you’re part of that. And so my job is to be clear, and to own past dynamics that I helped create, that I am now trying to change. And then the other person in that dynamic, they have to make their decision. But then you also get to decide do I want to continue a relationship where my growth isn’t welcome. Or my growth in this direction isn’t at least supported if it’s not applauded, right, at least supported. And so there are going to be relationships that don’t progress anymore. And there are going to be other relationships that not only progress, but the new dynamic that you bring to the relationship really opens it up for the next level of connectedness, and belonging and vulnerability. Because when you are stuck in pleasing, there’s a lot of those other tight, you know, elements of a healthy relationship that you can’t have, because you’re so busy, pleasing, and that’s where all of your time and energy is going. So the fallout is conversations are going to be needed around what’s going on. And some people will rise to the occasion and support and, and be on your team and some of the relationships might not be Yeah,
Andrea Nordling 49:04
I can see that I can see that with personal relationships being more ongoing, and maybe several conversations and that being a separate, but professionally, I’m just going through scenarios as you’re talking and I’m thinking about a lot of clients I work with that. Realize that they haven’t been great at setting boundaries with their clients or clients show up late. They don’t show up at all. They cancel at the last minute. They’re not doing the things they said they would do. They’re not submitting paperwork, they’re not paying on time. There’s so many different variations of that. And they they want to have a conversation. They don’t know what to say in the conversation. So they’re like, I gotta say the right thing. And then they’re ruminating on the conversation. We coach on the conversation. It’s everything that you’ve talked about. But I really feel like if I’m understanding what you’re saying that that conversation really needs to be phrased as bringing them in on how this is actually going to be better for them.
Sara Fisk 49:53
Yes, and where the coach or the business owner owns the part of the The dynamic that they have helped create, right? Right. Like, in the past, I have not enforced the late penalty, I have not enforced my cancellation policy. And that has created this dynamic where you, this makes a lot of sense, you feel very free to cancel last minute, because I don’t enforce it. Of course, that makes so much sense. And going forward, this is what we’re going to be doing. And this is how it’s going to be better for both of us. And I’m inviting you into this new relationship dynamic. ball is in your court.
Andrea Nordling 50:40
That’s so good. Okay, so that can be applied to our clients, then I’m also thinking of many use cases where my clients that work with clients of theirs on changing eating habits and changing lifestyle habits, I find that their their clients have the objection that they can’t eat a certain way, because their family won’t eat that way. Or they can’t eat a certain way because their kids won’t eat the food or they there’s lots of people pleasing that goes on there. So would you have any suggestions for those conversations or any, like tidbits about how to coach a client to have those conversations without going into, you know, the whole, the whole topic of people pleasing, but it really shows up in lots of ways with our clients. So I’m wondering if you have any tips there?
Sara Fisk 51:28
Yes. So with that type of client, if I were coaching them, I would say okay, so over here, we have you eating the same way your family eats, how does that feel? What is the outcome there? Okay, I don’t lose weight. I don’t address my unique health challenges. As a person of this age in this stage of life. I feel sluggish, I’d like you just really help them flesh out. What does option a look like? Okay, option B is I have some kind of special diet. And I either make the family eat, we’re all eating this together, or I’m making my own food, what would that feel like and look like? Right? Because those are the two, at least two of the options. There’s probably, you know, a third and fourth that we’re just not going to go into at this point. But understanding these are the two options that I have. Why is this one uncomfortable? What would my reasons be for doing this? What would my reasons be for doing this? And why is it uncomfortable, but what are the different outcomes? I think in helping them understand that we kind of bump into, of course, we want things to be easy. And something like weight loss, which is difficult, because it’s it can be very personal. And there’s a lot of, you know, testing different diets and different ways of eating until you find something that works for you. You have to get comfortable with the price that that requires. And sometimes that requires disappointing or disrupting a family eating dynamic. But if you like your reasons for doing that, because it gets you this result that you really want, then maybe what we need to do is get you comfortable sitting down and saying que family, this is the way we’re going to be eating from now on because it’s time for me to take up some space in this family. If you if you are not comfortable shifting the dynamic of a group, because it benefits you there is some people pleasing there. Yeah. Right, as And so helping them understand like, what are my reasons? And then choosing the one that is still going to be uncomfortable, but actually gets them the result that they want would be probably how I would handle that.
Andrea Nordling 53:50
Yeah, yeah. Because it’s uncomfortable. Either way, I have an email that I send periodically. That’s called choose profitable discomfort. And every time I send it, I get a lot of responses from people I like this is so true, this really resonated. And it’s this exact concept. It’s you go after your business, you do it you own that you have this goal. And it’s going to be uncomfortable, because a lot of aspects of it that are going to be uncomfortable or you don’t. And you spend that time wishing that you were wishing that you didn’t have a nine to five job wishing that you were following your passion and you’re still uncomfortable. But there’s this, there’s this one option that probably has a lot more benefits.
Sara Fisk 54:28
Well, and it’s you nailed it. And the thing that I just want to highlight, which you said is when you’re in the discomfort of not getting what you want because you’re not willing to prioritize yourself, you’re not willing to be uncomfortable. That is just like swirling the toilet, right? It just keeps happening and going around and around and around and around. There’s no end to that. But when you do the work to take on the discomfort of growth, it feels really uncomfortable at first I’m not going to try and make it sound like it’s even easier because it’s not it’s annoying. own, there are people who are going to be mad about it, probably, you’re going to have to handle and develop capacity for a lot of uncertainty and not knowing what’s going to happen. But it eventually gets easier. And you get more of what you want.
Andrea Nordling 55:15
Yeah. And you practice and you set the example. For those of us that are parents. That’s a big deal. Absolutely. Watched by someone, whether you’re a parent or not. But yeah, yeah. Okay, what else do we need to know about people pleasing before we talk about where people find you, and how you help them and what we’re doing in June inside the profitable nutritionist program, and all of those details,
Sara Fisk 55:38
the one thing that I always want to make sure that I say is that people pleasing, actually is part of healthy relationships, like you and I are friends, I want to know what pleases you. I want to know what makes you happy, I want to know how to help you if you need help. So it’s not that the people pleasing needs to go, we need to become aware of it. We need to put ourselves and our needs and wants on the same level as everyone else’s, instead of subordinate to everyone else. And then we need to know how to not please, when that is what the relationship really requires. Going back to our friendship analogy, let’s say that, you know, you did something that hurt my feelings, in order for us to have the healthiest of relationships for me to be able to come to you and say, you know, Andrea, to feel close to you, I need to feel like you’ll listen to me when I bring something up. And that last time, I didn’t really feel like I had your attention or that you were really listening. And that feels terrible to think about doing in some cases, right, like so vulnerable. And so just opening your heart up. But that actually allows us to have a better, healthier relationship. And it makes us not only better friends, but that are people that are humans who have a higher level of vulnerability in connection. So it’s not that people pleasing is a problem at all. It’s knowing your reasons why you’re doing it, and then knowing how to stop.
Andrea Nordling 57:17
Okay, well, I like that. I like that, like quick summary, because it’s true, we will do this. I love that you said this, though, and kind of brought it back succinctly to the fact that well, of course, we will people, please, we will. And there will be situations where it’s warranted, and we love it. And it serves the relationship and it serves us. Yeah, totally.
Sara Fisk 57:38
Yeah. And there’s gonna be other times when you just choose to do something that will please because you just don’t want the hassle of not, it’s totally normal in human relationships. What we’re after is just doing it consciously. Yeah.
Andrea Nordling 57:51
And I imagine looking at patterns is also important, especially as a business owner, when we know that those patterns could cost us a lot of money. A lot of sleep a lot of wasted time. Yeah, yeah. Okay, good to know. So tell us about your podcast, tell us about your program and tell us who is an ideal client for you so that they can come and find you on the interwebs. And then we’ll talk about what’s going on in June. Okay.
Sara Fisk 58:14
My podcast is called the X good girl podcast. I love it too. Because it’s an attempt to just name all the ways that we are taught to be good girls, good wives, good moms, good employees. Yeah, good, good, good. And that niceness is the quality that is most prized. But how that keeps us from living the life that we actually want to live in and truly feeling free. It is where I get to talk with people and interview people who are making different decisions and the bad girls of the world, right? The purpose of the podcast is to just really call out all of the good girl programming that keeps us spinning and doing a lot of things for other people, instead of creating the life that we really want to be living. I work with clients one on one, I work with clients in a group coaching program. And that is actually my favorite because it’s a community of anywhere from 10 to 15. Women who are ready to do the work to feel uncomfortable, to get rid of people pleasing. And the ideal client for me is somebody who knows that they are people pleasing. They don’t have to know all the places where but they’re really fed up, they’re really tired of it. And that fed up ness is beautiful fuel for coming into the program, and learning the tools and skills that will help them rewire not just the part of their brain that really wants to please other people, but to help them create safety and connection for themselves in a beautiful way that for many women, myself included, is the first time I really felt safe and connected And good with me.
Andrea Nordling 1:00:02
So is some of the somatic work part of what you do in your program? Yes, a lot of that is
Sara Fisk 1:00:07
somatic because people pleasing is to get connection and safety. And so when you’re not going to get your connection and safety from outside of you, you have to get it from inside of you. And we have all kinds of parts that try to protect us from losing connection with other people. That’s a good thing, right? We have to have connection in our communities and families and relationships. But what these parts need to understand is that it’s actually safe to do it. And all of that work is somatic. Because by creating the safety and connection first with ourselves, then we can go outside of ourselves, and shift dynamics in different ways that we’re not, we just don’t have access to when we don’t feel safe and connected first to ourselves.
Andrea Nordling 1:00:59
Right? And so that’s more if I’m understanding that correctly. That’s more of like actually changing the chemistry in your body to match the new thoughts. You want to be thinking. Yes,
Sara Fisk 1:01:08
yes. So that you, I mean, think about it this way, if you are a woman who is constantly beating yourself up, constantly responding to yourself with criticism and judgment, because you didn’t do it right, or say it right, or they’re mad, or you disappointed them. Or you said this thing that you shouldn’t have said, and now you’re getting get canceled, or you were too harsh, and this wasn’t nice enough. It’s like living with a bully all the time. And if you are not safe with yourself, you are not safe anywhere. And so the first thing to do is to calm that down so that you have safety and connection with yourself so that you can create safety and connection in new ways outside of you, and all of that is somatic. That can’t that’s not that work that you just think your way into. It’s all somatic work.
Andrea Nordling 1:02:01
This is so cool. It’s so cool, guys, she’s downplays how genius she is. But I know the truth. This is amazing. Okay, so they need to listen to the X good girl podcast, they need to follow you on where and what is your website, we’ll have this all linked up in the show notes.
Sara Fisk 1:02:19
I’m on Instagram, Sarah Fisk coach, my website is Sarah Fisk S A R A F I S k dot coach.
Andrea Nordling 1:02:28
That’s so cool. Okay, so that’s where people go find you. That’s where they follow you. That’s where they listen to you. That’s where they join your program. And they send all of their fellow people pleasers to you. Yes, in June, they get a preview of what that looks like. So we’re doing a workshop that Sarah is hosting inside the profitable nutritionist program. And it’s all about more in depth strategies and some nuanced approach to what we do as people pleasers in business. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Yes.
Sara Fisk 1:02:56
Here’s what I can say, if you plan on being at that workshop, and you should, not only because I mean, let me tell you, I have now been a coach for six years. There are few people out there who have the smarts, and the systems that Andrea has, I have turned to her with my own business questions often. And I’m doing that. I mean, you notice you’re getting more text for me lately read more and more. And so you being inside of her program is truly the smartest thing you can do. second smartest thing is showing up for this workshop, because I’m going to make it highly interactive, I want you to bring your sticky situations. And I just for me a sticky situation is where I’m pleasing. But I don’t want to and I don’t quite know how to stop. And we’re going to workshop all of them, I’m going to bring all of the tools that I teach inside my group coaching program, and I’m just going to pull up the one that you need. So rather than being like a one size fits all workshop, I’m going to respond to each person who’s there for as long as we have time individually to coach them through whatever that their situation is. If you don’t know how to say the words that you want to say, I have a method to help you find exactly the right words. And to practice feeling, the feeling that you’re going to have to allow yourself to have to say the different words, if you don’t know what you want, if you don’t know how to trust yourself, I have tools, and we’re just going to take everyone’s situation who’s there. And we’re going to workshop it together. If you’re coming, bring a sticky situation. And even if you can’t think of something between now and then come anyway, because the learning that you’re gonna get by watching other people get coached will be worth your time. Yes.
Andrea Nordling 1:04:44
Oh, it’s gonna be so good. I just cannot even wait. I’ve used this for myself, but I think it’s such a valuable tool for you to be sharing with my people so cannot wait. And thank you for your kind words before we let people loose on this to prepare for the works. up let’s go back through all of the peas the process with all of the peas, because I feel like we’re giving homework a little bit like and I love it. I’m happy about this I want to give some people pleasing homework and the all the peas framework.
Sara Fisk 1:05:13
Meal, I’m gonna give them two options for homework. So number one we talked about, you know, the P’s. First pause, like if you feel yourself in a sticky situation, pause, retreat, get up, get some alone time so that you can calm yourself down. Because number it’s step number two is pretend forecasting. Like pretend I take this scenario, pretend I take this path, what am I going to have to feel? What is that going to be like? Step number three you pick. You choose which situation the people pleasing or the non people pleasing that you are going to do. And you make sure you like your reasons for your choice. Step number four, whichever uncomfortable emotion you have chosen to take on, you’re going to process it. And number five, you’re just going to keep practicing. So that’s one option for homework. The other option is what you were talking about just building awareness. Oh, I noticed and people pleasing. What is it like in my body right now? What is there? Is there a little clue that I am that I’m self abandoning here? Is there some clenching in my chest? Is there a pit in my stomach? So even just building awareness would be a fantastic homework opportunity? If people listening want to take that one instead? Oh,
Andrea Nordling 1:06:35
my goodness, this is so good. I love a multiple choice option it allows so much, Sarah Fisk. I’m so glad that we’re friends and I’m so glad you came to the podcast and shared your genius. I am sure that this will be repeated. But of course I’m really looking forward to our workshop in June where we’re going to take it to the next level. So fun.
Sara Fisk 1:06:57
Me too. Thank you for having me. I love to talk about this as you can tell and what I can promise your people is that there is money to be made when you stop people pleasing. So get in Andrews program and I’ll see you in June.
Andrea Nordling 1:07:10
So good. Sounds so good. That is so fun. You are the best
